From Evangelical Pastor to Hell Bent Author, Brian Recker on Leaving Fear Based Faith for the Way of Love

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Well, Brian, I'm super excited
you're joining me today.

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This will be really fun just to
kind of talk about faith and

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your background and this new
book you have coming out.

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So thanks so much for joining me
today.

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Good to be here, Jonathan.
Well, this is awesome.

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I, I kind of came in contact
with your story through

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Instagram and I think it's
really fascinating story that I

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think this will be a lot of fun
to unpack.

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It's definitely not a path
that's travelled a lot.

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Most people kind of find their
way as a pastor or whatever and

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stay that way for most of their
entire life.

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And kind of that same role you
chose a little bit of a

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different path.
But let's first talk about kind

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of how this all started.
You grew up in a conservative

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household, went to Bob Jones
University.

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Talk to me a little bit about
that experience because I don't

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think most people that are
listening to this podcast know

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anything about Bob Jones.
So if you could unpack that a

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little, that would be awesome.
Bob Jones is, you know, get in

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therapy, I guess is.
So my dad is an independent

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fundamental Baptist pastor.
In other words, fundamentalist

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was not like a label that he
avoided.

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I think there's some Christians
that we might say like they're

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like a fundamentalist and they
would be like, no, no, I'm not a

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fundamentalist.
I'm like a regular Christian.

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My, my dad would call himself a
fundamentalist like he would, he

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would freely embrace that label.
Bob Jones University is where he

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went to school, and that's a
fundamentalist Christian

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university that again, calls
themselves a fundamentalist

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university.
And what that basically means,

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you know, the difference between
fundamentalism and mainstream

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evangelicalism is a little bit
subtle because their theology is

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quite similar.
Both fundamentalists and

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evangelicals both believe that
Jesus is the only way to heaven,

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that if you're not a Christian
then you're going to hell.

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But fundamentalists are much
less culturally engaged, so

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they're kind of defined by being
very separatistic in everything.

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So everything is worldly.
Movies are worldly, music is

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worldly.
I couldn't go to the movie

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theater.
We didn't listen to secular

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music.
At Bob Jones, you have to get

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all of your music checked, like
your hall monitor is like what

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they called Ras would You know
you'd have to submit any music.

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If you got found with
uncheckable music, you could get

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demerits.
You couldn't go to the movie

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theater, even to a rated G
movie.

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And what they would say is that,
well, if an unbeliever saw you

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exiting the movie theater, they
wouldn't know which movie you

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saw and they might think you
went to a rated R movie and that

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would ruin your testimony.
So it was all this thought about

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like being perceived by the
world as holy, as set apart, and

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the world was something that you
kept at a distance.

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And so that was the very
integral to the way that I was

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brought up.
And I kind of felt strange for

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most of my life.
I mean, I was homeschooled

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before I went to Bob Jones.
And Bob Jones is called like a

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nickname for it is the bubble,
right?

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So I pretty much felt like I
lived my the early part of my

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life in a bubble.
What would you say to, let's say

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in the off chance there's a
couple kids that are going to

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Bob Jones that are listening to
this, what would you say to

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them?
You have their ear for one

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minute.
What is the elevator speech you

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would give to them?
If you're like crap, I have a

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room full of Bob Jones students
and I got one minute with them.

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What do you say?
Interesting thing is that I

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found the student body there
could be really interesting

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because most of the kids that
are there are not drinking the

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kool-aid.
I would say a lot of them, like

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I was there, that's where my
parents really wanted me to go.

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And I feel like a lot of my
friends there and a lot of the

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people there were there because
they were told by their parents

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that's the only school we'll pay
for it.

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If you go to any other school,
you're on your own.

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Like basically you're cut off.
If you want your connection to

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us, we want you to go to Bob
Jones.

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So that kind of hierarchical
parental control LED a lot of

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kids there.
And so it was the, I would say

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only probably about 20% of the
student body were like all in on

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the Bob Jones way of thinking.
We even had a name for them.

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We called them Boges.
A boge was somebody you could

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not trust to be yourself around
them.

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In other words, you couldn't
just be freely talking about

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how, yeah, of course I watch
movies and I listen to music

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like a normal person.
You had to kind of pretend

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because you could get turned in.
There was a narc culture where

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people would turn you in.
So I guess I wouldn't.

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It would depend on who they
were.

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It would depend on whether or
not they were, you know, they

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wanted to be there, they were
all in or they were being forced

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to be there and that sort of
thing.

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So you finish school and you,
you know, quote UN quote, become

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a pastor.
Talk to me a little bit about

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what that was like coming from
this very strict, you know, you

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can't walk on the grass, Bob
Jones University.

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That's actually true.
You can't walk on the grass that

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is I.
Have friends that I have some

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friends that went there and told
me all some of the rules.

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Of data too.
The grass was very beautiful, we

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just couldn't walk on it.
Yeah, or.

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Don't walk on the grass.
Look at it, it was lovely.

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So talk to me a little bit about
what that was like transitioning

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to like from Bob Jones to a kind
of everyday American church.

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I didn't grow up wanting to be a
pastor, partly because that

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version of fundamentalism that I
just described was not very

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attractive to me.
It was what I knew, but it

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wasn't exciting to me.
And it was actually at Bob Jones

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that I, I went through my, what
I call my first deconstruction,

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which was deconstructing
fundamentalism and becoming a

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more mainstream evangelical.
And basically that just happened

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through exposure.
The people that I connected with

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the most of Bob Jones were not
the fundamentalist.

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They were people who may have
been made to go there.

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They were there for various
reasons, but they were not.

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They didn't actually buy into
fundamentalism, but they were

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still Christians.
And for me, that was important

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because I didn't want to ditch
my entire faith.

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I just wanted to be a person.
I didn't.

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I wanted my humanity back.
And Bob Jones really made it

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difficult to just be yourself in
many ways.

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And so when I found a version of
Christianity, you know, like I

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said, evangelicalism has a lot
of the same dogmatic

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exclusionary doctrine.
You know, most evangelicals are

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still anti-gay.
They would say being

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homosexuals, sin.
They would say, again, like

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anybody's not a Christian is
going to hell.

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So there's some things in there
that are still very

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exclusionary.
But I could as an evangelical

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pastor, I could wear jeans,
could listen to music.

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I could get tattoos even.
I could drink an occasional

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drink a drunk.
Go ahead.

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You could drink whiskey, smoke a
cigar.

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Evangelical pastors are
notorious for their whiskey

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drinking actually.
And so I, I think when I

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encountered that, I was like,
oh, good.

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This is a way that I could just
like be more human, be more

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myself without ditching the
theology, without becoming a

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heretic.
And I didn't want to be a

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heretic because at that time I
was raised from a very early

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age.
I mean, I'm talking 5 or 6 years

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old.
When I first learned about God,

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I also learned about hell.
And for me, those concepts were

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quite inseparable.
So the idea of moving away or

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deconstructing my faith was
frightening.

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The stakes were just too high.
And so being an evangelical was

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quite appealing.
And for the first few years when

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I became a pastor, I really
enjoyed it.

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I and it felt very spacious.
It actually felt like a lot of

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freedom compared to what I grew
up in.

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And it was a few years in that I
realized my deconstruction had a

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further place that it needed to
go.

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So talk to me a little bit
about, you know, your, your

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pastor at a pretty decent sized
church.

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What experiences kind of made
you realize that you couldn't

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keep doing ministry the same way
that your cohorts or

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counterparts were doing it?
You know, it's a lot of people

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don't think of church also as a
business, right?

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It's a big, huge structure that
has money coming in.

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It has payroll, it has all those
kinds of things.

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It's probably tough to make
change in a situation like that,

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so talk to me a little bit about
that struggle where you're like,

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man, I really want to do XY and
Z, but it just doesn't fit with

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what they're doing here.
Yeah, so I was what's called a

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site pastor at a multi site
church.

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And so I LED a congregation.
I had my own congregation where

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I preached every Sunday, but it
was a part of a broader family

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of churches and we all made
decisions together.

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So like you said, I couldn't
just turn the ship around and go

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off script.
I was accountable to this sort

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of broader team and you know,
for the first few years that I

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was a pastor, I started
pastoring in 2012 and until

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201520168 it was quite rosy for
me.

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I think I had rose colored
glasses on a little bit and I

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really did enjoy so much of what
I was doing.

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I loved preaching, I loved the
Bible, I love people, I loved

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helping people and I I love
Jesus.

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I love talking about Jesus in
the way of Jesus.

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I think the first crisis where I
began to feel like where I was

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being called was was outside of
the structure I was a part of

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was like I said around
20/15/2016 with the rise of

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Donald Trump to becoming the
front runner of the Republican

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Party.
It was sobering for me.

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I didn't really understand how
that for many, I mean, 87% I

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think of evangelicals voted for
Trump and I saw that within my

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church that people were getting
very, very passionate about him.

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Not just like, OK, you know,
there's nobody's perfect.

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And I don't like this person and
I don't like this person, but

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you got to pick one of them.
Not so much like that, but like

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in the Trump parades, waving the
flag, a level of buy in that

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really shocked me because I mean
2015, remember we when we first

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heard the Access Hollywood tape,
for instance, and me just being

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really shocked because I grew up
during the Bill Clinton Monica

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Lewinsky scandal.
I remember when my dad sat me

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down and that was when I first
learned what a blowjob was.

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And he explained to me why
character counts in the office,

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how you know who the, the, the
character of the president

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matters and that sort of thing.
And seeing some of the same

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people that talked a lot about
character when we're talking

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about a Democrat all of a sudden
ignoring what seemed very

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unignorable to me when we were
talking about a Republican was

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very jarring.
And I, I was, there was some

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cognitive dissonance there And
I, I started to realize that for

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a lot of people, this is less
about conviction, less about

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about values, and it is more
about cultural power.

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And that was a hard pill to
swallow.

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How was the response from, you
know, quote UN quote the church

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when you made some of these
like, oh, I might have a little

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bit of a difference of opinion
with AB and Z or, you know, this

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theology or that theology.
Was it well received from like

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literally the people that you
worked with or your kind of

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circle of friends?
Or was it like Brian's little

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crazy?
We're going to kind of push him

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off to the edge.
The other pastors were not huge

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Trumpers.
If they were, that would have

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been really hard for me.
They were more neutral,

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politically neutral.
And when I would bring it up,

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because for me, it felt like a
discipleship crisis that

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evangelicals were going this
direction so hard and pulling

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our country that direction,
which overall it just seemed

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more and more like we were
causing more harm in the country

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than good.
We weren't bringing the Kingdom

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of God, the values of Jesus to
welcome the stranger, to clothe

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the naked, to love the the the
foreigner and the vulnerable.

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And the least of these, those
values didn't seem like they

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were on display.
It felt like cultural dominance

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was what we were pushing for.
And I did talk to other pastors

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about this and they were
basically, you know, somewhat

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sympathetic to some of what I
was saying.

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Maybe we'd push back on other
things that I was feeling.

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But ultimately they felt like we
just needed to keep it about

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Jesus and not talk about those
things.

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And to keep it about Jesus
really meant to talk about a

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spiritual gospel, a gospel that
is about believing the right

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00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,080
things so that you are a
Christian and you'll go to

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heaven when you die.
And it had very little to do

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with things like the kind of
worlds that we are creating, how

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we structure society, who
benefits from the way that we

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structure society and who gets
left out of the way that we

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structure society.
And I just felt like I was

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censoring myself in a lot of
different ways.

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And I did that for a few years,
trying to challenge the system

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in various ways while really
feeling like I was pulling my

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punches.
And, you know, kind of wrestling

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with that until 20/20 was when I
ultimately kind of reached a

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00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,040
tipping point and had to put in
my resignation.

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00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,240
Yeah, tell me about about that
like moment, because I think

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everybody's got those moments in
their life where they're like

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very definitively chose a
different direction than maybe

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00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,960
what the norm is or what people
think they should do.

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00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,680
Tell me about what that day was
like for you to actually turn in

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00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:20,280
that piece of paper or e-mail or
whatever it was.

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00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,280
It had a meeting.
Scary, freeing and all that.

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00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:28,360
Actually, so leading up to that,
what I, you know, 2020 was

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00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,560
interesting because it was like
this great pause where we got to

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00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:35,120
reflect on what was happening
because we were all of a sudden

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00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,480
sequestered to our homes and we
stopped meeting.

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Obviously the church is a
gathering and so we stopped

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meeting publicly.
We were on Zoom and, and for a

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00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,200
pastor, Sunday is always coming.
And so it's very hard to be self

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00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,080
reflective as a pastor because
you always have another sermon

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00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,120
that you're preparing.
There's always another event

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00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,240
that you're planning.
And so sometimes it's hard to do

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00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,800
that big level thinking where
you zoom out and actually ask,

264
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am I doing more harm than good
here?

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Like are we actually doing the
right kinds of things?

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Because you have to keep that
machine running.

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Like you mentioned, it is a
business.

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You have to keep the tides
coming in.

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You have to keep the programs
moving.

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And so it can be hard to really
reflect.

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Not only that, it's really hard
to change your mind about

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something like, for example, a
theological issue like deciding

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that you want to affirm queer
people.

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That sounds all well and good.
Oh yeah, just decide that you

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want to affirm them.
For a pastor, that would mean

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00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,000
losing your job, which would
also mean losing your network of

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00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,840
relationships.
When you're a pastor.

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00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,080
They talk sometimes about how
most of us have a family life,

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00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,200
like a work life and maybe hot
hobbies.

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Pastors often all three of those
things are like the same thing,

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00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,520
like our family and our work and
all of our free time.

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00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,600
Our, it's almost all intertwined
with the church and your network

283
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,360
and the church.
And so to just change your mind

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00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,440
about a theological issue gets
you removed from really your

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00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,760
entire support network, your
relation network, not to mention

286
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,280
your salary.
And so it's, it's very costly to

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00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,080
actually change your mind about
any of this stuff.

288
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,600
And so having that ability to
reflect in 2020 when we stopped

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00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,760
gathering, that was the first
time where I think some things

290
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,000
got to catch up inside me,
things that were like bubbling

291
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,520
up.
And I, I got to really think

292
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,920
about what does integrity look
like for me and what kind of

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00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,040
cost am I willing to pay to, to,
to enter that integrity?

294
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,320
And ultimately what that meant
for me was, was quitting.

295
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,520
And that, you know, that maybe
won't be the same for everybody,

296
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,200
but for me, in order to be
authentic to who I felt I needed

297
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,440
to be and what I found to be
really interesting.

298
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,360
Oh well, just to go back to your
question though, I did have a

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00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,120
meeting and I was really
nervous, but I tried to leave

300
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,320
really well.
I didn't want to like destroy

301
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:38,840
the whole church.
I basically just.

302
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,320
Burn down the building on your
way out.

303
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,640
No, man, I, I was really, I
tried to be really kind, but I

304
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,800
basically said, you know, I'm,
I'm evolving in various ways.

305
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,080
And did you feel like I'm having
to pull my punches?

306
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,080
And I'm not exactly sure.
I didn't have a clear idea of Oh

307
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,360
no, we should definitely be not
doing it like this.

308
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,920
We should be doing it like this.
I just knew that I needed to be

309
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,960
out of that institution to even
be begin to dream that way

310
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,160
because sometimes those
institutions, they can put a

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00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,960
ceiling on even what's possible.
And what I found was when I

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00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,800
quit, it was like I changed so
rapidly on a lot of other things

313
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,400
too.
And I didn't even realize the

314
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,360
level at which I was censoring
myself in order to hold on to

315
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,080
belonging.
And that that is really the

316
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,320
hardest thing about any
deconstruction process,

317
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,120
especially in the church.
It's not just, yeah, the loss of

318
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,720
certainly salary, but not even
like changing your mind about

319
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,960
beliefs, which can be scary.
But actually the loss of

320
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,080
belonging is very unmooring.
And you can feel a little bit

321
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:34,880
alone through that process as
well.

322
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,800
Yeah, this is kind of a little
bit more of a personal question,

323
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,960
but I am curious, did it feel
like you had to start over?

324
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,120
Because I've, you know, I've
talked to pastor friends before

325
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,560
where they've quit for similar
reasons and it's like all their

326
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,600
friends are just gone.
I hope like they just like

327
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,400
Sayonara because all their
friends were inside that kind of

328
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,760
structure of the church where
they were paid staff people

329
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,320
together.
When you left that was it like

330
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,720
starting over?
Did you have like any friends

331
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,760
that stuck with you like through
this new journey that you're

332
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:12,560
going to be on and still on?
Yeah, so I'm moved when when I

333
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,200
quit as well, because I knew
that I was in a very small town

334
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:16,920
pastoring.
And I knew that if I stayed

335
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,480
there, it would have been hard
to change in the public view of

336
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,120
all the people that I had just
been pastoring with.

337
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:22,920
And I don't want to run into all
these people in the grocery

338
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,560
store.
So I moved to a new city.

339
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,000
So by default, I, I lost a lot
of my people.

340
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,760
And then as I evolved,
especially when I publicly came

341
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,600
out in support of affirming
queer people, that was a bit of

342
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,320
the nail in the coffin.
I mean, I've been in touch with

343
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,240
some people.
It's not like I'm disowned

344
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,960
completely, but they did remove
all my sermons from their

345
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,520
website when I, when I came out
and supported queer people and

346
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,240
kind of, you know, sent out like
a church wide e-mail about me

347
00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:48,600
that like, hey, we're praying
for Brian.

348
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,640
He's teaching things that are,
you know, unbiblical and that

349
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,560
sort of thing.
And so, you know, it does put

350
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,440
some strain on those
relationships for sure.

351
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,840
And ultimately, I found that to
be somewhat liberating.

352
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,360
I think for some people, they do
to placate some of those

353
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,000
relationships that they know
some of these systems that we

354
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,880
can come out of their punishing
system.

355
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,240
They police difference by those
mechanisms.

356
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,240
I knew, I knew that if I became
affirming that the people that I

357
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,000
used to pastor, that loved me,
that supported me, that I

358
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,599
experienced belonging from, I
knew that they would view me as

359
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:22,200
a heretic, as an unbeliever, as
a backslider, somebody who they

360
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,440
would now say, well, maybe he
was never even a Christian to

361
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,119
begin with.
Like I knew that kind of thing

362
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,280
was coming.
And that's what keeps you from

363
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,960
changing that knowledge that
they'll take that belonging from

364
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,040
you.
And so it is a scary thing.

365
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,080
There have been some people that
have, you know, continue to stay

366
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,600
connected to me.
But it is it is definitely tough

367
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,400
when you know that they have
like an agenda for you as well.

368
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,440
But no, I've had to make, I've
had to make a lot of new

369
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:45,960
friends.
And that and that can be a

370
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,760
difficult thing, but it can also
be a really beautiful thing

371
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,840
because I think the more
authentic you become, you will

372
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,120
lose people who that they'll
say, well, you're not who you

373
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:54,200
were.
You're changing.

374
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,360
I like the old version of you,
but like, I can't follow you

375
00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,560
where you're going.
And that can be really hard.

376
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,840
But the more authentic you are,
you will draw people that that

377
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,520
love you for you.
When you're being authentic,

378
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,200
you'll find the relationships of
the people that will actually

379
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,120
stick with you for who you're
becoming.

380
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:14,880
And ultimately, the kind of
people that I want with me are

381
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,640
the ones who not only just love
me for who I am right now, but

382
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,480
love me whoever I'll become.
Like they'll say, hey, like, oh,

383
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,480
there's a new version of you.
Well, I'd love to get to know

384
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,360
him.
That's the kind of energy I'm

385
00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:27,240
looking for.
That's awesome.

386
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:32,000
So at some point you entertain
the idea of writing a book.

387
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:33,920
You wrote a book.
It's called Hell Bent.

388
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,920
I'm going to put the link in the
description.

389
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,960
Talk to me a little bit about
how that kind of came to be.

390
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,840
There it is.
Look at that if folks.

391
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,840
So folks listening in, if you,
if you DM me on my Instagram,

392
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,680
which is wildly Alaska, I'll put
that in the description.

393
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,760
If you DM me, I'm going to send
a copy.

394
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,560
I'm going to buy and send a copy
of that book to the 1st 10

395
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,960
people that DM me.
So DM me that you want the book

396
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,440
and I'll buy and send it to you
off my Amazon account.

397
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:06,280
But my question to you is this,
Brian, what what first spurred

398
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,160
on this, the idea of this book?
We're going to get into the book

399
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,520
more, obviously, but talk to me
about how how this idea came to

400
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,800
be.
Yeah, so as I deconstructed, I

401
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,760
did issue of hell was always one
of the the big ones for me that

402
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:23,000
it really bothered me.
I mean, ever since I was a kid,

403
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,600
I never liked believing in it,
but it felt like you had to

404
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,440
believe in it.
It was it's a package deal.

405
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,000
If you want Jesus, if you want
heaven, you've got to take hell

406
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,080
too.
They all come together.

407
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,440
Not only that, but hell very
much was like a Jenga piece, you

408
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,600
know, the the load bearing one
where it's like it felt like if

409
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,440
I took hell out of the Christian
story, the whole tower would

410
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,880
collapse.
In other words, Well, if there's

411
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,960
no hell, then what's the point
of being a Christian versus

412
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,400
anything else?
If there's no hell, then why did

413
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,560
Jesus die?
Didn't he die to save us from

414
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,440
hell?
Isn't Jesus a savior?

415
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,880
What is?
Salvation, even if hell is not,

416
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,520
is not a thing.
And so for me, deconstructing

417
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:04,000
hell was really a part of me
working through a lot of aspects

418
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,840
of the Christian faith.
And I knew that for a lot of

419
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,560
people, hell ultimately was make
or break in, whether or not they

420
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,000
stayed Christian.
So a lot of people who D convert

421
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,240
completely and say, well,
Christianity is not for me.

422
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,720
It's because they can't get
behind a punitive God who sends

423
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,320
everyone who's not a Christian
to hell.

424
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,800
But what I really began to
realize, especially as I

425
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,320
encountered theologians outside
of sort of white American

426
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,800
Christianity, liberation
theologians, you know, black

427
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,640
theologians, Eastern
theologians, womanist

428
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,760
theologians, as I encounter
different theologies and ways of

429
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,160
approaching the Christian story,
I realized that we were really

430
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,520
impoverished.
Because a spirituality that's

431
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,960
primarily about believing the
right things so that you go to

432
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,280
heaven instead of hell when you
die really robs us of the core

433
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,760
aspect of what spirituality
truly is, which is about growing

434
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,720
in love in this life, especially
for the sake of the most

435
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,240
vulnerable people.
And it puts all the weight on

436
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,240
what you believe, believing the
right dogmas for the sake of the

437
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,160
afterlife.
And I think that that actually

438
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,480
robs us of the true message of
Jesus, which is a message of

439
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,360
love for the world.
And so, yeah, as I began to work

440
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:11,600
through this and I was getting a
lot of questions, it just felt

441
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,960
like, yeah, it felt like there
was a book there because I knew

442
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,680
that it was the book that I wish
I had 10 years ago when I first

443
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,240
started wrestling with with some
of these issues about

444
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,000
deconstructing hell.
And I wasn't seeing a lot out

445
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,240
there.
Now, there are a lot of

446
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,800
resources out there that will
point out, hey, some of the

447
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,480
stuff you've learned about hell.
It's not even in the Bible.

448
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,600
It's a apocalyptic language,
hyperbolic language in the Bible

449
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,880
that that was never meant to be
read literally.

450
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:38,800
But the problem is, it's not
just about reframing.

451
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,160
My book is not just about
reframing a few Bible verses.

452
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:44,240
It's about seeing the entirety
of Christian spirituality,

453
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,440
reframing it away from believing
the right things for the sake of

454
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,040
punishment, avoidance, and
instead embracing a vision for a

455
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,680
life of loving transformation.
You know, I think a lot of folks

456
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,480
that are listening to this, I
grew up in Iowa, middle America.

457
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,640
And for folks that maybe didn't
grow up going to church, is it a

458
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,080
fair assumption to say a lot of
kids in Sunday school are

459
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,200
taught, you know, believe in
Jesus or you're going to go to

460
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,640
hell, essentially?
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I do this

461
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,920
thing when I travel around and
I'm typically talking to groups

462
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,640
of people that are mostly
Christian or former Christian,

463
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,440
where I'll say, hey, if you ever
got saved, if you ever became a

464
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,080
Christian, if you ever made a
choice to accept Jesus Christ

465
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,440
into your heart or accept Jesus
as your personal Lord and

466
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,960
Savior, stand up.
And usually the whole room will

467
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,840
basically stand up.
And then I'll ask, OK, if when

468
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,960
you made that decision to get
saved or make Jesus your Savior,

469
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:38,360
if when you made that decision,
you knew about hell.

470
00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:41,480
In other words, you knew that
hell was the consequence for not

471
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,880
getting saved, for not accepting
Jesus into your heart.

472
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,520
Remain standing.
And usually everybody will

473
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,360
remain standing.
Maybe one person will sit down.

474
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,880
In other words, when we made
that choice, it was almost no

475
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,720
choice at all.
It was a choice between, hey, do

476
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,920
you want to believe this and not
get punished forever, or do you

477
00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,680
want to get saved and avoid
punishment?

478
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:02,080
And so it was the fundamentally
coercive choice.

479
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,800
And for a lot of us that was at
the very foundation of our

480
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,480
spirituality.
We made that choice when we were

481
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,360
very young.
That's the third question I'll

482
00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:10,040
ask.
I'll say, hey, if if you made

483
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,080
that decision when you were
younger than 10 years old,

484
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,080
remain standing and typically
90% of the people remain

485
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,880
standing, that when we were very
young, we were told that we were

486
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,280
going to go to hell by default
unless we got into a

487
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,800
relationship with God.
Now, I think the idea of a

488
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,280
relationship with God is
beautiful.

489
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,960
I believe that you, I, all of us
are in a relationship with God.

490
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,840
But when we say that the
condition of a relationship with

491
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,320
God is this coercive threat that
robs us of the joy of a loving

492
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,080
relationship.
You can't build a loving

493
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,400
relationship on the foundation
of coercion and domination.

494
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,560
Do you think that that what
what's your take on?

495
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,720
I would say the, you know,
modern mega church in America.

496
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,600
Do you think where do you think
they land on this issue and do

497
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,080
you think it's a good place?
Yeah, so most mega churches are

498
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,520
not talking about hell a lot, if
at all, but they believe this.

499
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,480
If you go to their statements of
faith on their website, almost

500
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,520
all of them will have this in
their statement of faith, but

501
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,440
they're not talking about it,
which seems odd to me.

502
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,160
So I confront that in my book as
well, that to say that you

503
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,840
believe this and not talking
about it is even weirder because

504
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:17,880
if you really believe that
everybody's not a Christian is

505
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,400
going to go to hell, you should
probably be talking about it.

506
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,440
So instead they kind of gaslight
you and say no, no, it's all

507
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,560
about love.
Normal mega church will say it's

508
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,520
all about love, but when you
want to get in on it, when you

509
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,640
want to become a Christian,
that's when you find out that

510
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,520
it's this black and white binary
choice.

511
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,720
Heaven or hell.
You're either one of us.

512
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,200
You're an insider and therefore
saved from God's punishment, or

513
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,960
you're outside and you're going
to be under threat of God's

514
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,200
punishment.
But they'll they'll almost never

515
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,000
say that on a Sunday morning.
However, they know that if they

516
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,760
change their minds about that,
they would probably lose their

517
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,040
giving.
The tithing would dry up.

518
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,880
People would say, oh this is
liberal, this is not a Christian

519
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:55,840
anymore, and they would turn
their backs on it.

520
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,120
Because unfortunately this is
seen as a pretty fundamental

521
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:01,720
pillar in Christianity.
But I do not believe that it was

522
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,800
fundamental to the way and the
teaching of Jesus.

523
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,680
Yeah, what?
What do you, what's your hope

524
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,240
that this will spur people on to
do?

525
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,200
My guess is that that they would
maybe live less in fear and more

526
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,560
in love.
But talk to me a little bit

527
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,040
about that and then what does
that look like practically?

528
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,880
Because I think a lot of people
will be like, well, great,

529
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,560
sounds good.
But what do I do then if I'm

530
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,640
supposed to be living out of
love as opposed to just worrying

531
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,120
about my get out of Hell free
card?

532
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,800
Yeah, I think for me, because of
hell, I was always that one of

533
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,200
the main issues with religion is
making sure you were the right

534
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,880
religion, you believe the right
things because the stakes were

535
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,080
really, really high for
believing the wrong things.

536
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,080
But for me, letting go of a
punitive God, and I recognize

537
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,280
the point isn't being right.
The point is growing in love.

538
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,320
And so I no longer ask, is this
the right thing to believe?

539
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,080
Is this the correct doctrinal
belief?

540
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,960
Instead, I ask what makes me
bloom?

541
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,800
What causes me to grow in love?
And if a belief causes you to

542
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,960
grow in love, I think that's
worth believing.

543
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,920
Now, I actually believe the way
of Jesus is a beautiful path

544
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,760
towards love, but not when we
start with a punitive threat at

545
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,960
the core of it.
So yeah, I think my hope is that

546
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,440
people will be able to embrace
each other as well.

547
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,040
I think this ruins our
relationship relationship with

548
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,040
our neighbors.
It causes Christians to be

549
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,600
combative towards the world, to
have this idea that the world,

550
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:21,880
they're damned, they're going to
hell.

551
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,640
They're our project.
We need to convert them.

552
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,320
We need to colonize them.
And that makes it impossible to

553
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,240
really love our neighbor as
ourself.

554
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,280
I can't just accept you as you
are.

555
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,680
If I think that who you are is
going to hell, I have to have to

556
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,200
convince you to agree with me.
And so I think that letting go

557
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,520
of some of these beliefs will
allow us to be able to enter

558
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,360
into relationships of mutuality,
be more generous with our

559
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:45,560
neighbors, not see people as
threats to us that need to be

560
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,560
excluded, but be able to embrace
people right where they're at

561
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,520
and ultimately to embrace myself
as well.

562
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,040
Listen, if you believe, like I
was taught that by default you

563
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,480
are worthy of hell, like by
default, you were born

564
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,920
fundamentally worthy of the
worst kind of punishment.

565
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,440
And not just you, but everybody
you know is worthy of that

566
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,320
punishment that affects how you
view yourself and other people

567
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,640
and recognizing instead that God
is with you.

568
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,800
And I think the message of grace
is, is that God's love doesn't

569
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,480
have to be earned.
You don't have to do anything to

570
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,760
be loved, not anything at all.
And, and, and that being able to

571
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,840
embrace that love, embrace
yourself, embrace other people

572
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,920
right now in the present moment,
I think is where true

573
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,360
spirituality starts.
Did you ever have doubts when

574
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:34,000
you're kind of in your
reconstruction of this?

575
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,400
Because I think some folks when
they make a radical shift like

576
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,120
this, they also shift away from
Jesus or the Bible altogether.

577
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,920
Was there a time where you were
on the cusp of maybe just like,

578
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,680
you know, becoming agnostic or
atheist or something like that,

579
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,800
that, you know, I think could,
you know, folks could, I think

580
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,040
folks have done that in the
past, right, where they've kind

581
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,760
of stepped away from the church
and just kind of done a 180.

582
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,440
As my beliefs were evolving,
there was a moment where I was

583
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,480
like afraid that I was like, Oh
no, am I on the slippery slope?

584
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,560
Am I going to become an atheist?
And I was, I was afraid of that.

585
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,920
But then I realized that I know
a lot of atheists and many of

586
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,280
them are incredible people who
have better values than a lot of

587
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,480
the Christians I know.
And I don't think that they're

588
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,680
going to hell.
I I think that they're amazing

589
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,200
people that are doing good
things in the world.

590
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,360
And what I realized was that if
I become an atheist, because

591
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:29,200
that's honestly where I'm at.
And it's like, hey, I'm just

592
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,720
being honest about where I've
landed and where I believe, then

593
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,080
that would be OK and it wouldn't
be a bad thing.

594
00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:36,600
So I had to take the moral
judgement off the table because

595
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,960
honestly, so many of us, you
know, there's this concept of

596
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,120
beginner's mind.
Very few of us approach our

597
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,920
religious beliefs with
beginner's mind.

598
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,720
In other words, with
intellectual honesty.

599
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,760
We come with the baggage of how
we've been shaped because the

600
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,920
stakes are so high.
Hell makes it really hard to

601
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,080
just say, hey, let me just
evaluate these things honestly

602
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:55,920
because it's like, well, but
what if I'm wrong?

603
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,920
What if I go to hell?
But taking away hell out of the

604
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,600
equation and recognizing if, if
I become an atheist, because

605
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,920
that's honestly where I'm at, I
don't want to say that that

606
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,400
would be a morally inferior
thing.

607
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,360
And so now the reason I'm not an
atheist isn't because I think

608
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,320
it's really important to be a
Christian or else.

609
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,840
And like, if I was an atheist,
that would be bad because

610
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,400
atheists are going to burn.
No, no, no.

611
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,720
The reason I'm not an atheist is
so simple.

612
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,800
It's because I still believe in
God, like just genuinely like I,

613
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,800
it makes more sense of my
experience of the universe and

614
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,920
life.
And I've had experiences that

615
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,000
make me believe that there is a
more, that there is a

616
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,560
transcendent and also an
imminent God.

617
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,600
And I've, I've just experienced
God.

618
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,120
And so I decide the fear went
away when I realized, hey, if

619
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,280
I'm a human atheist because
that's honestly where I'm at,

620
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,400
then that would be OK.
But huh, you know what?

621
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,240
I'm not an atheist, and that's
fine too.

622
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,920
Now, I will say that the way
that I hold my Christianity is

623
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,120
certainly different than than it
used to be.

624
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,160
I don't care that much about
labels like some people would

625
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,280
say, oh, you're not a Christian
because you don't believe in

626
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,280
this sort of reward and
punishment system of heaven and

627
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,360
hell.
But the way of Christianity

628
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,440
before it was sort of this
dogmatic list of beliefs, it was

629
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,160
a path of following Jesus.
What it means to be a Christian

630
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,320
is to be a follower of Jesus.
And I still Jesus, see Jesus as

631
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,640
a spiritual teacher.
Sure worth imitating.

632
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,080
And I encounter God in the
person of Jesus.

633
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,760
And that doesn't mean that
nobody else can encounter God

634
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,440
any other way.
But that's that's where I

635
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,120
experienced the the divine.
So I still hold on to my

636
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,880
Christianity.
That's awesome.

637
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,560
So you also have, you know, for
folks listening and I'm going to

638
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,560
put your social media links into
the podcast description.

639
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,960
You also are not shy or fearful
of talking about hot button

640
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,720
issues.
And I think I watched one of

641
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,000
your Instagram reels recently
where you talked about the

642
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,160
anti-Semitic hate and the anti
Muslim hate that's kind of

643
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,680
rampant around the US.
And that we should, you know,

644
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,320
your two cents on it was that we
should be weary of both, right?

645
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,760
That we that it's not one or the
other that we should probably

646
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,800
shouldn't hate either one of
those folks.

647
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,760
So talk to me a little bit about
that because you hit not just

648
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,840
maybe specifically that issue,
but you are not afraid to go

649
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,680
after hot button kind of
headline issues that I think

650
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,200
almost every other.
Yeah, well, person in your shoes

651
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,600
that's like, you know.
Yeah, I see this as the spirit.

652
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,320
So for me, the realm of why does
spirituality matter?

653
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,680
I think it matters for the here
and now, for the kind of world

654
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,160
that we're building.
Unfortunately, religion so

655
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:39,320
frequently is used as a tool by
systems of domination to other

656
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,360
people to scapegoat people, to
exclude people, to create rigid

657
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,360
binaries, who's in and who's
out, why it's OK to not have

658
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,440
empathy for that kind of person
because they're the wrong kind

659
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,600
of person and to to draw these
lines between people.

660
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,440
And unfortunately, Christianity
has been used that way.

661
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,400
We're seeing it used that way
right now in our country.

662
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,600
But I don't think that's what
Jesus was all about.

663
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,680
Jesus was about erasing those
boundary lines, about welcoming

664
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,520
people in, about recognizing who
society was built to exclude and

665
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,520
including those people.
He recognized the people that

666
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,280
were being labeled as outsiders
and and he he built big long

667
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,640
tables that included the people
that you weren't supposed to eat

668
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:17,920
with.
And that's why the main

669
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,280
complaint about Jesus from his
religious peers.

670
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,920
He was a drunk.
Well, yeah, he was a he's a

671
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,040
drunk, he's a Sinner.
He he eats with sinners.

672
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,960
He he welcomes sinners and they
he partied with them.

673
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,720
OK, Like these were his kind of
people.

674
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,040
It wasn't like he just gathered
the sinners together in order to

675
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,080
preach at them so that they
could get saved and not go to

676
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,520
hell.
No, he was like, oh, you people

677
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,080
who who are being told that you
don't belong, He said you, you

678
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:42,560
belong.
You've always belong.

679
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,640
God has always been with you.
And I think we've lost sight of

680
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:47,800
that.
There are political

681
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,800
ramifications to the gospel, and
I think that often Jesus is

682
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,440
weaponized as a mascot to sort
of baptize a very rigid

683
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:01,640
hierarchical society where that
is often, that's often fueled by

684
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,560
male dominance.
Unfortunately, men were the ones

685
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,880
speaking for God in the system
that I grew up in.

686
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,280
And many, often times, it's
still very common within most

687
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,160
forms of Christianity that you
have very rigid gender

688
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,400
hierarchies.
And you know, I'm always just

689
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,280
asking when I see these
different forms of of religion,

690
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,480
who's benefiting from from that
status quo and who is being

691
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,640
excluded, who is being oppressed
and left out of power in these

692
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:27,280
situations?
Because Jesus was always

693
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,240
noticing who is being left out
of power and he made them his

694
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,160
priority.
His message of the Kingdom of

695
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,120
God was at the last will be
first.

696
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,240
Blessed are the poor.
That was that's what Jesus did.

697
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,800
And so that's what I'm trying to
do as well.

698
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:41,560
Imperfectly, but that's.
Nice.

699
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,200
So what?
What's your advice to folks to

700
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,720
that maybe feel some of these
like there's going to be a lot

701
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,160
of people listening to this be
like, man, I kind of felt like a

702
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:52,960
little bit like this or a little
bit like that.

703
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,680
But I think a lot of people
don't know you only get 2

704
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,720
choices, right?
You either go to church and

705
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,960
you're a part of this machine or
you don't go.

706
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,160
What's your advice to folks that
are maybe curious about some of

707
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,400
the things that you're talking
about?

708
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,880
Obviously go check out the book,
go buy the book.

709
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,080
But outside of that, what do
you, where do they start?

710
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:12,880
Because I think it can be
daunting to folks.

711
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,120
Not everybody has the confidence
that you've been blessed with to

712
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,840
be able to stick out, you know,
do these kinds of things.

713
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,600
And a lot of people just feel a
lot of people feel stuck or

714
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,560
don't know where to start or why
even try, right?

715
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,679
Because it's, you know, not
going to make a difference.

716
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:30,639
Yeah.
Well, you know, it depends.

717
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:33,520
If I'm talking to somebody who's
a Christian but feels like

718
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,560
they're part of a movement of
Christianity that's not

719
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,520
accurately representing Jesus.
And I don't think that the only

720
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:39,920
way to do this is to go to
church.

721
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:44,400
But I am a part of a church that
I believe does actually live out

722
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,120
some of the things that I've
been speaking about.

723
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,480
And there are many amazing
progressive Christian churches

724
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:53,560
that make it a lot more about us
living out the ethic of love

725
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,719
than about making sure that our
dogma is correct so that we go

726
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:58,080
to heaven instead of hell when
we die.

727
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:00,880
The Episcopal Church, the United
Methodist Church, there is a

728
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,880
growing number of non
denominational churches in that

729
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,560
category.
Unfortunately, the predominant

730
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,440
group of Christian churches in
America are still more

731
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,280
evangelical and more dogmatic in
their approach, and they can

732
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,360
kind of give the whole movement
not a bad rap.

733
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,480
But I don't think it has to
happen in the church.

734
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,920
You know, I think the church has
a beautiful opportunity in a

735
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,080
moment when people are really
lonely, really alienated, really

736
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,560
divided, and often we have a
society that's very

737
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,760
individualistic and is splitting
us all apart.

738
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,680
I think the church is a great
place where you can experience

739
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,120
mutual aid and community and
lift each other up.

740
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,320
But just as often churches don't
do that, but find that wherever

741
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,600
you can find it.
And you know, I think we need

742
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,200
each other right now more than
ever with our what our country

743
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,240
is going through right now.
There's a rise of fascism.

744
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,240
And that fascism, if we're
honest, is often being fueled by

745
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,760
Christianity.
Christian theology often lies

746
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,080
behind it.
If you look into Project 2025

747
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,000
and the origins of some of
what's going on right now, a lot

748
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,360
of this is is theological, but
Christianity was never supposed

749
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,360
to be about gaining cultural
power to sort of enforce our

750
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,680
hierarchies on everybody else.
I do believe that it should be

751
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,880
about loving our neighbors.
So find some neighbors to love.

752
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,240
And I love Mr. Rogers's advice.
I always cling to when I'm

753
00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:13,960
really overwhelmed and I'm not
sure what else he said.

754
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,800
Look for the helpers.
That's that was his thing.

755
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,520
Whenever something bad, when bad
shit is going down around you,

756
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:23,160
look for who's helping, who is
leading, who is contributing to

757
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,320
life instead of death, who is
contributing to flourishing

758
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,400
instead of harm.
It's usually really obvious.

759
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,440
Find those helpers and join
them.

760
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:32,760
So where can folks find your
book?

761
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,200
Find you on social media?
You know, for folks that are

762
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,200
listening in our car and that
can't write anything down

763
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,160
because they'll get in a wreck,
tell us.

764
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,200
Tell us the best place I can
find you.

765
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,360
Anywhere books are found.
It's really cheap on Amazon

766
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,720
right now because they're trying
to put all local bookstores out

767
00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:49,640
of business.
So, you know, if you don't have

768
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,240
any ethical problems with that,
that's the cheapest place to get

769
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:53,920
it.
But I always recommend, if you

770
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,360
can get it at a local bookstore,
it should be there.

771
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,120
It's called hell bent.
How the fear of hell holds

772
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,840
Christians back from a
spirituality love and you can

773
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,720
find on Instagram at BE Wrecker.
I also write pretty regularly on

774
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:07,800
sub stack.
You can find me on there, Brian.

775
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,880
And they can probably subscribe
to your sub stack pretty pretty

776
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:11,680
easily, right?
If they.

777
00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:14,120
Yeah, it's a free or a paid
subscription.

778
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,640
Most of my posts are are free
though just to get them out

779
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,480
there for people.
Nice.

780
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,360
Well I'll put the sub stack link
in the podcast description.

781
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,960
Brian, I really appreciate you
joining us.

782
00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:26,800
We win an extra 10 minutes.
Do you have any last minute

783
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,000
thoughts here before we head
off?

784
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,080
Good luck out there, folks.
If 2026 is anything like 2025,

785
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,880
we're going to need each other.
So, you know, find your people

786
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,760
and hold on tight.
Awesome.

787
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:38,160
Well, I appreciate you coming
on, Brian.

788
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,480
You're welcome back anytime.
It's fascinating to follow folks

789
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,000
like you, people like Rob Bell,
Joshua Harris, folks that have

790
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,520
maybe shifted their theology a
little bit, but still have a lot

791
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,680
to say in the world.
So I appreciate your thoughts.

792
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,040
I appreciate you having a voice
in the crowd and you're welcome

793
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,560
back anytime.
Thanks man, great to be here.